The Lantern. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
“It Was Important for Both of us to Come Back Home”: In Сonversation with Neri&Hu
由專築網小R編譯
Lyndon Neri1965年出生於菲律賓，畢業於哈佛大學，Rossana Hu1968年出生於中國臺灣，畢業於普林斯頓大學，他們相識於加州大學伯克利分校。他們在普林斯頓Michael Graves & Associates 事務所就職了10年之久，2004年，他們在上海成立了如恩設計研究室(Neri&Hu)，該工作室目前有超過100位國際建築師與設計師在各司其職，有著許多知名作品，其中包括上海南外灘水舍、牆垣 – 青普揚州瘦西湖文化行館，以及蘇州禮堂。這兩位建築師除了經營著建築設計工作室之外，還經營著零售商店設計工作室，同時擔任著傢俱品牌Stellar Works的設計總監。以下是在其上海辦公室裡的採訪。
Lyndon Neri (b. 1965, Philippines) graduated from Harvard and Rossana Hu (b. 1968, Taiwan) from Princeton; they met while pursuing their undergraduate degrees at the University of California at Berkeley. Before establishing Neri&Hu in 2004 in Shanghai, a prolific, multidisciplinary practice with over 100 international architects and designers, the husband-and-wife partners worked for a decade at Michael Graves & Associates in Princeton. Among their most recognized works are The Waterhouse at South Bund in Shanghai, The Walled – Tsingpu Yangzhou Retreat, and Suzhou Chapel. Apart from running an architectural practice and design studio the partners lead a retail store Design Republic and serve as creative directors of a furniture brand Stellar Works. The following is an excerpt from our candid conversation at their Shanghai office.
The Lantern. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
Vladimir Belogolovsky（下文稱為VB）：你並沒有在中國學習過建築，那麼這是否會給你帶來不同的設計視角？
Lyndon Neri（下文稱為LN）：是的，這會讓我們有一些與主流不同的觀念。
VB：在國內，幾乎所有領先的獨立建築師都是中國人，他們畢業於清華、同濟等頂尖學府，然後他們會在美國進行接下來的教育，這種趨勢一般不會有例外，是嗎？
Rossana Hu（下文稱為RH）：我們有著不同的開端，我們對於事情的看法也不太相同，我們瞭解到美國建築的內涵，當然這和文化背景也有關係。
LN：實際上我們比較喜歡歐洲建築師，也許是因為我們也有類似的焦慮感受，比如我們該如何找項目？歐洲人無法依賴於身份來找項目。在歐洲，許多人並非來自瑞士、葡萄牙、西班牙，他們仍然希望自己能夠成為優秀的建築師，我們認為自己是中國建築師，但是別人會認為我們有著美國建築學習的背景，因此是美國建築師，但是我們並不確定事實是不是這樣。
Vladimir Belogolovsky: You never studied architecture in China. Does this give you a different perspective from many leading contemporary architects here?
Lyndon Neri: For sure this makes us different from the mainstream.
VB: All leading independent, avant-garde architects here in China are Chinese-born, mainly educated at the top Chinese universities – either Tsinghua in Beijing or Tongji in Shanghai. They then continue their education typically in America. There are very few exceptions from this trend, right?
Rossana Hu: Absolutely. We had a different start, and we definitely see things differently. And we also see things differently from the American architects, even though, we were trained in the same schools. This is mainly because of our cultural background and cultural interests.
LN: We actually relate more to European architects. Partially because we have a similar tension and anxieties; where are we going to get our next work from? The Europeans can’t rely on their identity to get work. Many of them are not seen as Swiss, Portuguese, or Spanish architects. They want to be seen as good architects. We identify ourselves as diasporic Chinese and would often be seen as American architects in China, but I am not sure if we are truly American.
The Foreplay. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
VB：我很驚訝你會這麼講，因為我不確定是不是有“美國建築師”這麼個定義，但是以前有好多優秀的建築師，例如密斯、格羅皮烏斯、康、沙裡寧等等，而現在則有迪勒、蓋裡、裡伯斯金等等，他們都是第一代移民，你無法把美國人進行分類，他們都很獨立，這是一種正確的趨勢，但是將中國人進行分類卻容易一些，你們也許在其中非常突出，是嗎？
LN：某種程度來說，我同意這個說法，但是其中也只能包含一小部分美國建築師，他們的思維非常獨立，這個小群體具有全球性質，他們對於自己的項目有些挑剔，諸如So-IL、Johnston Marklee、MOS、WorkAC等事務所的想法都很廣泛。美國的建築行業有很多東西都已經標準化，所以主觀意志上很難有不同。就中國建築師而言，我不確定是否能將建築業概括為統一，因為這個泱泱大國裡，諸如劉家琨、董功這樣的建築師都有著不同的思維方式。
RH：你談到的是職業聯繫，但是對我們而言，重要的是回家，儘管我們並非出生於此，但是對我而言，回到這座城市十分重要，因為我的父親就是在這裡離開，他走了，而我回來了，中間沒有間隔，我們的孩子在這裡長大。因此，個人的歷史已經轉化為我們的建築特徵，難道個人的行為不會在建築設計中表達出來嗎？
VB: I am surprised you say that because I am not sure there is such a thing as an American architect anymore. Look at so many leading architects – both in the past, such as Mies, Gropius, Neutra, Kahn, and Saarinen. To now, such as Diller, Gehry, Libeskind, Safdie, and Viñoly – they are all first-generation immigrants. You can’t group the Americans. They are very independent and individualistic, which is a healthy thing. It is very easy to group the Chinese. You are just about the only one in the leading pack here who stand out, right?
LN: I agree to a certain extent, but you are only talking about a small group of American architects that are very independent in their thinking. These small groups of architects are quite global and are extremely critical of their projects and thinking. Even the smaller practices like So-IL, Johnston Marklee, MOS, WorkAC to name a few are all quite global in their mindset. But I am not referring to them. I am talking about 95% of the architects and not the selected few. The construction industry in the US has standardized most things so it is hard to be different even if you want to. In terms of the Chinese architects, I am not sure if it is fair to generalize them as being all the same. China is a big country and someone like Liu Jiakun who practices in Chengdu deals with different issues from say someone like Zhang Ke of ZAO/standardarchitecture or Gong Dong of Vector Architects.
RH: You are talking about professional connection. But personally, it was important for both of us to come back home, even though we were not born here. It was important for me to come back to the city which my father has left. He has left and then I came back, so there was no break. And then our kids grew up here. So that personal history has translated into our architectural identity. Because isn’t personal identity always expressed in one’s architecture?
Schindler City. Image © Dirk Weiblen
Schindler City. Image © Dirk Weiblen
Schindler City. Image © Dirk Weiblen
Schindler City. Image © Dirk Weiblen
VB：實際上，在中國建築師的作品中，我很難發現個人特徵，但是現在你回到了中國，並在這裡進行了15年的建築實踐，你認為自己擁有中國特徵還是美國特徵？你是否認為自己有著西式思維？
LN：這不僅僅是我們的想法，同時我們也是這麼被告知的，我的祖母總是這樣告訴我，“無論如何，你都是一位中國人。”因此身處異國他鄉是，我需要維護自己的中國血統，因此我的長輩很擔心我完全西化。有趣的是，我會在全世界的交流中發現一些傳統的中國思維已經消失，因此保留中國血統就至關重要，舉例而言，當我們的孩子去美國時，竟然努力證明自己是美國人，我當時就很不安，於是我問他們，“你為什麼想要表現得像美國人？”那麼，我是誰呢？（笑）
VB: I am actually having a hard time to detect personal identities in the work of Chinese architects. But now that you are back to China and have been leading a successful practice here for 15 years, do you identify yourselves more as Chinese or Americans, or more broadly as westerners?
LN: It is not just what we think, it is also about what we were told. Since as far as I can remember, my grandmother always told me, “You are Chinese, no matter what.” When you are in a foreign land you need to protect your Chinese-ness because your parents and grandparents are very afraid that you are going to lose it. Interestingly, some of the traditions that you may find in Chinese communication across the world are long gone in Mainland China. So being Chinese is very important. For example, when our kids went to America and tried to identify themselves as Americans it bothered me to the core. I would ask them, “Why are you acting so American?” So, who am I, really? [Laughs.]
5-Design Republic . Image © Pedro Pegenaute
5--Design Republic . Image © Pedro Pegenaute
5---Design Republic . Image © Pedro Pegenaute
RH：就我個人而言，我是一位中國人，我想表達的是，多一些中國特徵，少一些國際性質。因為我們常常被人認為帶有國際特徵，而當我們在外國時，人們就會認為我們是中國人。因此，我們也不知道自己帶有什麼樣的性質，我們希望自己沒有文化標籤，我們很獨立。
LN：所以我們只需要做好本職工作，不用擔心自己的身份，在一開始時，我們並沒有那麼多資源，我們也不屬於某個團體，因此我們沒得選，只能獨立。上海南外灘水舍項目引起了 很多人的關注，國內外評論家也對其進行了評論，他們發現我們的作品背後有一套嚴密的邏輯，那麼這是最重要的，這座建築由上世紀30年代的日本軍事建築改造而成，我們解決了其中的許多問題，例如表達建築的歷史特徵，喚醒博物館的檔案品質。其中結合了新舊觀念、隱私與公開、舒適與不適的不同特點，這個項目也引發了人們對於其他項目的關注。
RH: Personally, I can tell you that I identify myself as both Chinese and Taiwanese, more Chinese. And work-wise, I would say more Chinese and less international. Because here we are often seen as international and when we work abroad, we are identified as Chinese. So, we don’t really see ourselves as either Chinese or American. We want to be seen as contemporary architects without this cultural identity label. We are very independent.
LN: So, we just focus on doing good work and we don’t worry about our identity. When we started, we did not have any network so naturally, we are not part of a group, so we have no choice but be independent. When we did our Waterhouse at South Bund here in Shanghai everyone noticed and so many, both Chinese and international critics and architects wrote about it. They realized that we have a serious pedagogy behind our work; that’s what important. We addressed so many issues in this conversion of a 1930s Japanese army building into a boutique hotel – by exposing the building’s historical layers that evoke the archival quality of a museum. There is a play with such polar notions as old and new, privacy and publicness, comfort and discomfort. This project brought attention to many of our other projects on all scales.
The Brick Wall. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
The Brick Wall. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
The Brick Wall. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
VB：Lyndon，你說過，“我們在現代建築中是否真的有突破？這是個人們常常會迷失其中的時期，在這時候，建築師需要尋找真實的自己。”那麼你所談論的這個時期從何時開始？從哪裡開始尋找？又是什麼因素給你靈感？
LN：幾年之前，我們有意識地區參觀了許多沒去過的建築作品，例如，我們參觀了Terragni 位於Como的建築，以及柯布西耶以及路易·康位於印度的作品，另外還有Geoffrey Bawa設計的位於斯里蘭卡的作品等等。
RH：這是很豐富的經歷，這些大師的作品確實比其他作品顯得更加深刻。
VB: Lyndon, you said, "Have we really had breakthroughs in modern architecture? It's a period wherein people are somewhat lost, and in which we really have to be in search of ourselves, as architects." Were you talking about the current period and where do you begin this search? What inspires you?
LN: A few years ago, we started making conscious efforts to visit real masterpieces that we still haven’t been to. So, we visited Terragni’s buildings in Como, buildings by Le Corbusier and Louis Kahn in India, La Tourette in France, works by Geoffrey Bawa in Sri Lanka, the Parliament complex by Louis Kahn in Bangladesh, Lewrentz’s churches in Sweden, to name just a few.
RH: This was quite an experience and we both agree that these buildings are so much more profound than anything built since. We are talking about works by all our contemporaries.
The Sanctuary. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
The Sanctuary. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
VB：那你認為現代作品都缺少了什麼呢？
LN：在早期的項目中，我們看到了意識形態、深入思考，在概念、空間、結構、材質上都有著很大的突破，因此我們想的是，現在的項目能夠跟以前的項目進行對比嗎？我們有進步嗎？作為專業來說，我們是否有突破嗎？其實，五十年來並沒有，我們沒有進行更多的研究。
RH：我們都在進行著各種變化。
VB: What do you think is missing?
LN: In those earlier projects we saw ideologies, deep thinking, real breakthroughs conceptually, spatially, structurally, materially. So, we were thinking – what can we compare that’s being built now to that? How far did we progress? Have we done any real breakthroughs as a profession? Nothing really happened in fifty years! We haven’t done anything new!
RH: All of us are just doing variations.
The Black Box. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
VB：那你怎麼看蓬皮杜藝術中心？畢爾巴鄂古根海姆博物館？西雅圖公共圖書館？亦或是維特拉消防站？
LN：你說的這些畢竟是少數。
VB：那麼接下來呢？你有研究內容，也有許多資源，你是怎麼想的呢？
RH：我們也在問自己這個問題。
LN：我們不確定我們是否有這個能力，諸如政府或是私營企業等客戶，他們都有自己所需要的東西，他們也擔心我們的作品超出了他們所需要的範疇，我們花了很長時間才說服了他們。
VB: What about Center Pompidou? Bilbao? Seattle Public Library, or Vitra Fire Station?
LN: But you are talking about a limited few.
VB: So, what’s next? You have a research component, great resources. What holds you?
RH: We are asking this question ourselves.
LN: I am not sure if this is within our power. I think clients, be it the government or the private sectors, have all the information they need but precisely because of this they are scared to go outside of what is accepted. We spend a lot of time persuading our clients.
@ Neri&Hu. ImageThe Future Ruin
@ Neri&Hu. ImageThe Future Ruin
@ Neri&Hu. ImageThe Future Ruin
VB：你說過，“我們討厭純粹裝飾的項目。”那麼你們喜歡什麼項目呢？
LN：我們近期在某個項目中掙扎著，因為它們已經有些過於裝飾性了，但是這是客戶的需求，我們仍然希望做出改變，Pierre Chareau在巴黎設計的Maison de Verre就是我們的目標，它是建築？還是室內設計？亦或是是傢俱設計呢？
VB：在過去的10年裡，中國是否有讓你欣賞的項目呢？無關乎建築師的國籍。
RH：如果必須要選擇的話，我會選擇王澍2008年的作品寧波歷史博物館，這座建築很打動人，除了建築，我還喜歡中國蘇州的古典園林。那些園林裡的詩意讓人感到愜意，我喜歡的某些場所並沒有名字，我們也不知道是設計師是誰。
LN：個人而言，我比較喜歡王澍的作品。
VB: You said, “We absolutely hate projects that are purely decorative.” What kind of projects do you like?
LN: I think lately we are struggling with some of the projects because that’s what they have become – decorative. Unfortunately, that’s driven by some of our clients. But we try to design our projects holistically. One project that’s exemplary for us is Maison de Verre in Paris by Pierre Chareau. Is it architecture, interior design, furniture design?
VB: Is there a particular project built here in China over the last decade or so that you admire most, either by Chinese or foreign architects?
RH: If I must pick one such project it would be Wang Shu’s Ningbo Historic Museum built in 2008. There are moments about that building that are quite moving. And apart from architecture, what really moves me are the Chinese ancient gardens, particularly in Suzhou. The moments that the poetry of those gardens can offer are magical. I also love the fact that these places are anonymous; we don’t know who built them by name.
LN: Personally, I like many of Wang Shu’s explorations in The China Academy of Art in Xiangshan near Hangzhou.
Split House. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
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