[Serious] I’m struggling to see Otto Porter over DeMar DeRozan, please explain.
【严肃讨论】我实在看不出来奥托-波特比德玛尔-德罗赞强的理由，谁能帮我解释一下？
On ESPN’s player ranking for the next season they put players like Booker, Otto, Khris and Brown over a 4x allstar, 2nd team all-nba selection.
The most confusing was Otto. How is anyway is he better than DeMar other than defense? He’s a role player that didn’t reach his potential while DeRozan is a star.
ESPN在下赛季球员排名中将把布克、波特、米德尔顿和杰伦-布朗都排在了德罗赞刚进二阵的四届全明星之前。
最令人费解的是波特。除了防守之外他哪里有一点点地方比德罗赞要强呢？他只是一个没有完全兑现天赋的角色球员罢了，德罗赞可是一位实实在在的明星啊。
[–]ColdWorldGotHotter 487 指標 6小時前
Definitely don’t see that either.
Demar is the better player and will have the better season
我也搞不懂。
德罗赞是一位更好的球员，而且下个赛季也会比波特表现得更好。
[–]NuggetsEricStoltz-MaskMorty 184 指標 6小時前
ESPN is worse than ever. They also predicted the Lakers to miss the playoffs just so people would talk about it. They just feature dumb opinions to get people riled up and talking, hence why Stephen A and Skip are so prominently featured.
ESPN是真的烂到家了。他们还预测湖人无法打入季后赛，这样就能引起大家的争论了。他们传播愚蠢的观点就是为了激怒人们展开讨论。这就是为什么Stephen A和Skip Bayless是头牌。
[–][NYK] Lou AmundsonLominattii 88 指標 5小時前
Skip doesnt work for espn
哥们儿有一说一啊，Skip Bayless可不为ESPN打工（实为Fox Sports）。
[–]NuggetsEricStoltz-MaskMorty 155 指標 5小時前
Psh. Don't let facts distract you from my unnecessary whining...
行行。事实归事实，我不必要的抱怨归抱怨，请不要溜号。
[–]GenericUsername10135 100 指標 6小時前
These lists purposely include hot takes, that is how they get people talking about and clicking on their articles.
这个榜单刻意地囊括了挑口水的观点。只有这样ESPN才能让人们乐意为此争论还心甘情愿地送上点击量。
[–][OKC] Russell Westbrookmrpengo88 345 指標 6小時前
DeMar gets ranked 39th, leads his team to the first seed in the East and makes second team All-NBA, stays 39th.
雷霆球迷：德罗赞去年就排在第39名，之后他带领球队成为东部头号种子，自己也入选了联盟第二阵容。你猜怎么着？嘿，今年还是第39!
[–]RaptorsNo_Fence 102 指標 6小時前
Shit's ridiculous. Demar is a winning (regular season) player... He's been one of the two best players on a Raptors team that's a consistent top 4 seed. Put Otto Porter on that team and tell me they get the first seed in the East last season.
猛龙球迷：太荒唐了。德罗赞是个能赢球的球员（我说常规赛）……他是猛龙两位最好球员中的一个，同时球队稳定保持在前四种子的行列。把德罗赞换成奥托-波特，你觉着猛龙还能占据东部榜首的位置吗？
The Raptors schooled the Wizards these playoffs with minimal contributions from the bench mob, and still people will claim that Beal, Wall and Porter are all better than DeRozan. Makes you wonder how the Raptors are better than the Wiz every year if Lowry isn't top 5 or some shit.
近几年的季后赛里奇才被猛龙疯狂地教做人，猛龙的板凳匪徒们甚至都没怎么发力，然而人们还是认为比尔，沃尔和波特都要比德罗赞强。我就好奇了，如果洛瑞不是联盟前五或者其他什么妖魔鬼怪，猛龙是怎样做到每年都比奇才强的。
[–][TOR] DeMar DeRozanDoyinYale 126 指標 6小時前
I can’t believe people on this thread are seriously justifying Otto being ranked higher than DeRozan.
It reminds me when people were justifying Crowder being ranked over DeRozan last year.
猛龙球迷：不敢相信这个帖子里还有人一本正经地为波特排名比德罗赞高辩护。
这让我想起来去年人们为克劳德比德罗赞排名高费尽口舌的样子。
[–][TOR] Dell CurryModernPoultry 45 指標 5小時前*
B L O G B O I S
Im a blog boi myself but a lot of guys pigeonhole themselves looking at the game on a spreadsheet and not putting enough value in the in game application and value of having elite dribble perpetrators and shot creators.
猛龙球迷：就是一帮键盘侠呗。
我自己也是键盘侠，但很多人只盯着数据而没有足够认识到具体的比赛过程、运球制造突破机会和创造投篮机会的重要性。
Despite the hate they get, guys like Kobe, to a lesser extent Westbrook and to an even lesser extent DeMar, win you basketball games by the stress they put on defenses. More so than advanced statistical darlings that do well with the max usage they can generate within an offense, that lets face it are becoming easier to come by (the catch and shoot 3&Ds...your Roco's Porter's, Prince's, Aminu's, Ariza's, Harris', OG's etc)
尽管很多人都憎恨诸如科比威少和德罗赞这类球员，但这仨人能为你赢球（赢球能力依次递减），靠的就是他们带给防守端的压力。咱就打开天窗说亮话吧，那些高阶数据十分看好的球员们就算是在最大化使用率情况下的进攻端贡献也没什么可稀奇的。（那些接球就投的3D射手，也就是波特、托里恩-普林斯、阿米奴、阿里扎、托拜厄斯-哈里斯、OG-阿奴诺比这类的）
[–]76ersretroracer 94 指標 4小時前
From their companion article:
"To put it bluntly, DeRozan's advanced stats don't match up to his reputation, for two reasons. The minor reason is that his offensive production -- his midrange game -- has not been especially efficient. The major reason is that he has been a disaster on defense.
摘自ESPN的排行文章：
“坦率简单地说，德罗赞近两个赛季的高阶数据都与他的名声不相符合。一小部分原因是他的进攻端产出——他习惯中投的比赛风格——并不是十分的高效。而主要原因则是他在防守端是一个彻彻底底的灾难。
According to RPM, he is consistently one of the worst defenders at shooting guard and plays D at a level that costs his team dearly. The Raptors often played better with DeRozan sitting than with him on the floor."
根据真实正负值体现，德罗赞一直是得分后卫位置上防守最差的球员之一，他在防守端的贡献实际上深深地伤害了他的球队。在德罗赞坐在板凳上的时候，猛龙经常打得更好。
[–][CLE] Kevin Lovequentin-coldwater 48 指標 3小時前
I think people don't understand/appreciate the difference between mediocre defense and bad defense.
I've seen a lot of outright bad defenders be called "so-so" defenders on here.
骑士球迷：我觉得，人们根本搞不懂/不重视中流防守和糟糕防守之间的区别。
我经常看到话题区的诸位把许多惨不忍睹的防守者委婉地称为“一般般的防守者”。
[–]carmensandiegosbro 36 指標 3小時前*
This is it exactly... Points scored and media hype are what DeRozan has over Otto, nothing else. Even that is 15pts vs 22pts per on 2x the possessions used. The Raptors won games because their second string outscored opponents by 2x the margin of any other second-string in League, not because they had one of the least effective leading scorers in the league, who gets cooked on D, and can't shoot. It's the basketball equivalent of curls for the girls, meanwhile the world's strongest man looks like Shrek.
完全同意……得分和媒体炒作是德罗赞唯二比波特强的地方，没别的了。而且即使如此，15分和22分的对比也是基于德罗赞的使用率两倍于波特的前提下。猛龙能赢比赛是因为他们的板凳阵容得分是联盟其他球队板凳阵容得分的两倍以上，而并不是因为他们有全联盟效率最低的得分高手之一作为领袖，这位得分高手防守端一滩烂泥，进攻端还无法投篮（三分）。就好像女孩留卷发但世界上最强壮的男人看起来像无毛的史莱克。
Otto is 15% better from 3, and 10% better in eFG%. Way better rebounder. Can guard all 5 positions and play 4 on offense. Otto is an elite defender who ironically shut DeRozan down on the regular. DeRozan is a high volume inefficient scorer who can only play the 2 (but can't shoot?) and who can't guard most of the wings in the league.
波特比德罗赞在三分球命中率上高出15%，在有效投篮命中率上高出10%。篮板上更是完爆德罗赞。波特能防守五个位置的球员，在进攻端还能顶上去打4号位。波特同时还是一名精英级别的防守者，而讽刺的是，他经常能彻底防死德罗赞。德罗赞是一个走量的低效得分手，他只能打二号位（而且还不具备三分能力？），没办法防守联盟里绝大多数的侧翼球员。
The Raptors win games because of their depth and D, and lose in the playoffs because their "stars" are inefficient and can't play D. Otto is the opposite. Maximum impact per minute, and beating DeRozan handily in win share per 48 and VORP. Effective and efficient is King.
猛龙能赢得比赛纯碎是因为他们的阵容深度和防守，他们在季后赛里输球就是因为他们的“明星球员”打球低效还不具备防守能力。波特是他的反面。他每分钟都能最大程度地影响球队，在每48分钟胜利贡献值和替换价值上完胜德罗赞。高效有作用的产出才是王道呀。
[–]LakersMrBigWaffles 28 指標 3小時前
They don't even play the same role tf. Otto is a complimentary role player to John wall and beal.
If we were to ask Otto porter to carry a teams offence the same way derozan does, all those highly efficient numbers youre seeing would fall off a cliff.
湖人球迷：搞特么什么啊，他们的角色本身就不同啊。波特是一个能补强沃尔和比尔的角色球员。
如果我们让波特像德罗赞一样扛起球队进攻端的大旗，你看到的那些高效的数据会掉落悬崖一样往下坠的。
Use context in your arguments, don't just spit out numbers.
你的论点必须结合环境来考虑，不能一味地搬数据。
[–]Hornetsjocro 11 指標 4小時前
I think that assessment undervalues the value of shot creation.
Can't speak specifically to defense, but I'm generally skeptical of any tell all metric on that end, and the team may have played better with him off the floor due to the talent level of their bench mob.
我觉得那项评估标准低估了自主创造投篮机会的价值。
我对防守上的事儿说不准，但我一般对防守端所有的所谓能指明一切数据指标都保持怀疑态度，而且当德罗赞不在场时猛龙之所以打得更好也是因为他们一干替补匪徒的爆表天赋。
[–][CLE] Larry Nancethreeoneleads 17 指標 3小時前
They've been better with him off the floor for several years though, even before they got the bench mob that good
骑士球迷：其实猛龙没德罗赞打得更好这个现象已经持续好几年了。早在猛龙的板凳匪帮很出色之前就是如此了。
[–]CavaliersFlakyGround 36 指標 5小時前
I think Otto is more conductive to winning basketball and would fit well in any system unlike DeRozan.
骑士球迷：我认为相比于德罗赞来说，波特对于胜利的贡献更加显著，而且不同于德罗赞的是，他能与任何一个战术体系无缝对接。
It's difficult to compare the two because they play different roles, but for me it isn't hard to see why some people would have Otto as the better player. DeMar is a horrendous defender, not very efficient (and insanely inefficient in the postseason), and his teams have historically been better with him off the floor.
对比他们两人的能力其实挺难的，因为他们各自扮演不同的角色。但我也不难理解为什么有人会相信波特是一名更好的球员。德罗赞是一个糟糕透顶的防守者，并不十分高效（在季后赛里低效到令人发指），当他不在场时球队也时常能打出难以置信的优秀表现。
DeRozan is obviously better if you need someone who can put up a shot and be aggressive for the whole game, he puts more pressure on the defense etc. I probably rank DeMar lower than most people on here, but I can see the case both ways in this situation.
当你需要一个能自己投篮，全场保持侵略性并给防守带来很大压力的球员时，德罗赞无疑是更好的选择，他能给对面的防守带来更大的压力。相比话题区大多数人的排名，我或许会把德罗赞排在更低一点的位置，但我也能理解两种不同排名存在的理由。
[–]76ersIsh_but_the_1st_time 18 指標 4小時前
Yeah I don't think it's that crazy either for these exact reasons. You probably can't build an elite system around Otto. But players like him can be starters on an elite team.
They're ranking players based on how they contribute to 5-on-5 team success. Some elite role players are naturally going be ranked above some underwhelming "stars".
是啊结合这些原因来看，我也不认为这个排名有这么疯狂。你或许不能围绕波特来组建一支精英级别的球队，但波特这样的球员可以在一支精英球队里担当首发。
ESPN是根据球员们在五对五比赛中的胜利贡献来排名的。一些精英级别的角色球员自然而然会被排在一些发挥不佳的“明星球员”之上。
[–]carmensandiegosbro 15 指標 3小時前
You can't build an entire system around the DeRozan either. No championship team is anchored on inefficient mid-range Jumpers and horrible defense.
你也不能围绕德罗赞来组建球队体系啊。没有一支冠军球队的基石是一名防守糟糕的低效中距离投手。
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