作 者｜BingChan
排 版｜ 拾 叄
中文共5280字
5分鐘可讀完
本期嘉賓：Dean McClelland，資深金融行業投資人，深耕投資領域二十餘年，曾在PayCorp，Oppenberg Capital等多家金融機構工作，現任Tontine Trust唐提信託創始人。
唐提信託的非凡之處在於每年，他都會讓上百萬達到退休年齡的用戶的生活水準得以提高。當然，如果更想了解這個項目，文末有傳送門，諸君可以自己瞭解。
這次訪談
我們主要來和這位資深金融男
聊了聊投資 創業和人生
訪談記錄
Dean
Bing chan
1
區塊鏈投資 哪裡最有潛力？
Bingchan: Dean，我知道您最近在亞洲和世界其他很多地方奔波；那麼，走過了這麼多地方，那麼對於區塊鏈項目投資來講，您覺得最有潛力的地方是哪裡？
Bingchan: Hi, Dean, I know you have traveled around many places in Asia and other places worldwide recently, and as far as you are concerned, what is the most potential place for blockchain investment?
Dean:我之所以在亞洲呆了如此長的時間，是因為我看到了亞洲市場在提供問題解決方案這一點上具備巨大的潛力。在歐洲或是在美國，你看到的是他們花了幾百年時間實現的商業成果，這些商業成果已經成功應用到了市場的方方面面。
Dean: The reason I am spending so much of my time in Asia these days is that I see amazing potential to adopt new technologies to solve problems. In Europe & the US you have all these massive established industries that have spent hundreds of years building up their businesses and in many ways they have crowded every corner of their markets.
而在亞洲，我們看到的是巨大且不斷快速發展的人口以及源源不斷累積的財富；現在亞洲市場面臨的問題是發達經濟體30年前所面臨的問題，而亞洲市場正在尋求這些問題的解決方案。
In Asia though we have enormous, fast growing populations that are becoming more and more wealthy and that are now seeking to solve the same problems that developed economies solved 30 years ago.
但是現在一個巨大的不同點就是亞洲並不是在複製30年前的解決方案，它做的是開拓更加創新且更能解決實際問題的方法，讓新方法超越老技術。
The big difference though is that Asia is not trying to replicate the 30 year old solutions, they are looking at how to make better, more modern solutions that “leapfrog” the old technologies.
一個簡單的例子就是在美國/歐洲，很多家庭在家裡還擺著銅製的電話線或者網線，然而在亞洲，基本上所有人只用手機進行日常溝通。
A simple example of leapfrogging is that in US/Europe, most homes have a copper cable running to their homes for phone / internet connection but in many parts of Asia everyone just uses their mobile.
另一個經典案例就是微信支付和支付寶支付。有了這些便利的服務，誰還需要銀行卡?
Another good example is WeChatPay and Alipay. Who needs a bank account anymore if you have these?
我認為相似的潮流會發生在區塊鏈身上，人們日常可以使用區塊鏈支付及區塊鏈轉賬服務。
I think we will see something similar with blockchain where blockchain based payments solutions and remittance solutions will take over whole areas of economies.
接下來區塊鏈就會涉足保險領域。當人們的財富日趨增長之時，他們也會開始研究如何讓自己免於財務糾紛；人們不會糾結於無用的財務解決方案，他們想要的是最簡單，最值得信任的解決方案，讓金錢得以實現最大的價值。
Next after that will be insurance. When people start gaining more wealth, they also start thinking about how to protect themselves from financial problems and there is no reason why people will look to old inefficient solutions that do not meet their needs. They will want the simplest most trustworthy solutions that offer the best value for money.
2
唐提信託：越長壽，收益越高？
Bingchan：您能否告訴我們一些關於唐提信託項目的細節（收益及風險）以及您做這個項目的動機是什麼？舉例來講，我們知道您的目標是“越長壽，收益越高”，而我們的讀者也想知道一些基本信息以及投資者是如何從中收益的。
Bingchan: Could you tell us some details about TontineTrust project (the advantages and risks for example) and what is the driving force for you to lead this programme? For example, we know your goal is “live longer, obtain more”, and readers want to know a brief introduction and how they can benefit.
Dean: 找個你認識的已退休人士，問問他們每個月花多少錢才不會入不敷出。事實是他們並不清楚這些，所以他們在退休之後會擔憂他們花費幾何，這實際上非常糟糕。
Dean: Talk to anyone you know that has retired and ask them how they know how much money they can spend every month without running out of money. The fact is that they cannot know and therefore they spend their retirements worrying whether they are spending too much or too little. That is an awful way to live in retirement.
近十年來，全球學者們建議引入史上最為流行的金融產品來解決這一問題，同時建立了一種全新的可以自動購買人壽保險的養老金代替方案。這個系統就被稱為唐提，我們設計了這個系統並且申請了專利，該產品就是以區塊鏈技術為依託的唐提，因為精密的數學運算作為後盾，他們可以保證投保人的收入平衡。
For the last 10 years at least, academics around the world have suggested bringing back the most popular financial product in history to solve this problem and to create a whole new alternative type of pension system that automatically provides longevity insurance. This is called a Tontine and we have designed and filed a patent for a blockchain based Tontine that is mathematically guaranteed against ever running out of money.
基本來講，現在人們可以存款並且為退休之後的生活投資，他們會收到人生中的一筆收入，而這筆錢財永遠不會流失。更好的是月度收益的增長，投保人越長壽，月度收益保持增長，而年級越大的投保人則是中了樂透彩的幸運兒！
So basically now people can save and invest for retirement knowing for certain that they will receive an income for life that will never run out of money. Even better is that the monthly payments more or less increase slightly on a monthly basis such that if the member lives a very long time then monthly payments should just keep increasing and the elderly member will probably feel a little bit like a lottery winner.
這也是為家庭成員解決壓力的方案。如果你已婚，承擔著贍養四位長輩的責任，現在你承擔著加倍的壓力-因為父母越長壽，他們的存款就會消耗的越快。
This is also a great solutions for taking pressure off of families. If you are a married couple with responsibility for taking care of 4 retired parents then you now have the added stress that the longer your parents live, the more likely that their savings will run out.
但是如果你的父母投資了唐提，那麼不用擔心，你只需要好好照顧你他們，這樣一來只要他們身體健康，那麼這項收入就會一路看漲。
But if your 4 parents invest into a Tontine then you have no need to worry, you just need to take care of your parents as best you can knowing that the total family income is likely to keep increasing for as long as you are blessed to have your parents around.
在金融機構涉足且唐提社區幣付諸市場之前，這是事情運作的雛形。
In many ways this is how everything used to work all over the world before financial institutions stepped in and pushed community based tontines out of the market.
3
豪華而專業的顧問團隊
（顧問團隊包括比特幣基金會創始董事，曼聯董事會成，前高盛高級諮詢師……等等，是不是很厲害的陣容！）
Bingchan:您的顧問團隊陣容強大，包括Jon Matonis（比特幣基金會的創始董事），Michael Edelson（曼聯董事會成員），數字貨幣經濟學家Jorg Platzer及前高盛亞太區資深諮詢師Norbert Gehrke。他們是否是項目的投資者？還有一個小問題就是您是否是曼聯的粉絲？
Bingchan: You have a very powerful consulting team, including Jon Matonis, Michael (Mike) Edelson, Jorg Platzer and Norbert Gehrke. Are they investors for your project？And one quick question is that are you a fans of Manchester United?
Dean: Jon在2011年成立比特幣基金會；在那之前我們就已經是彼此的摯友；我跟Mike在合作了一些IPO項目後，就成了好友，現在已經20多年了。
Dean: I have known & trusted Jon since before he set up the Bitcoin Foundation in 2011 and have known Mike for around 20 years as we collaborated on some amazing tech IPOs.
去年，我跟Joerg在柏林著名的77比特幣吧見了一面；多年以來，他一直和Jon講想把區塊鏈技術和唐提項目相融合；在柏林之旅中，更是萬幸可以和Norbert相見，他為我們介紹了金融科技領域一些非常著名的玩家。
I was excited to meet Joerg last year at his world famous Room77 Bitcoin Bar in Berlin as he had been talking to Jon for years about building Tontines on a Blockchain. We were also lucky enough to meet Norbert while in Berlin and he is already being incredibly helpful introducing us to major players in the Fintech industry last year while visiting Joerg.
所有這些顧問，或者購買了TON幣，或者介紹了買家，或者兩者兼而有之。
我從1994年開始就支持曼聯，我覺得這樣一來，跟Mike合作更有意思；Mike在過去的30年間一直是曼聯的董事會成員。
All of the advisors have either bought TON$ personally or introduced buyers or both.
I have supported Manchester United since 1994 which makes it even more enjoyable to work with Mike whom has been a director of Manchester United for the last 30 years.
去年，我和Mike吃午飯並且闡釋了我所工作的項目，他告訴我他的父親60年前就是唐提的一員，而唐提在很多情況下，幫助Mike和家人渡過了二戰之後的財政危機。因為這個原因，Mike很樂意幫助我們把唐提構建成一個全球性的平臺，幫助上百萬的家庭。可以想象，一旦我們準備充分，Mike將會幫助我們找到退休的足球運動員來投資我們的項目，他們就可以一勞永逸，不用擔心財產損失了。
I was having lunch with Mike last year explaining what I was working on when he told me that his father had been a member of a Tontine about 60 years ago and that the Tontine had on many occasions helped Mike’s family survive during the financial depression after World War 2. For this reason, Mike is very excited to help us grow Tontine into a global platform that can help hundreds of millions of families worldwide. I can also imagine that once we are ready, Mike will be able to help us get some retired footballers investing into our Tontines to ensure they never run out of money in their old age.
4
唐提信託=飢餓遊戲？
（這個炫酷的海報有點厲害）
Bingchan:為什麼您稱唐提信託為飢餓遊戲？
Bingchan: Why do you call Tontine Trust “The Hunger Games” of Pensions?
Dean:去年我和Jon Forman教授通了一次電話，他是一位著名的美國學者，曾經寫過幾篇關於唐提的重要文章並且闡釋過為什麼我們把能夠一次性持有Tontine的人數限制在10, 000人以內。
Dean: I was on a call last year with Professor Jon Forman, a famous US academic that has written some important papers about Tontines and was trying to explain why we limit our Tontines to 10,000 members at a time.
我們的想法是為成員提供激勵，讓他們注重身體健康，努力生活讓自己成為長壽人群中的一份子，這也意味著他們會在漫漫人生路中得到更多財政激勵。
The idea is to provide a motivation for the members to try to take better care of their health and to try to be the last surviving member which means that they will have benefited the most financially during their lifetime.
這次我們想做的就是養老金中的“飢餓遊戲”；雖然在最近幾個月，我聽到越來越多的人把我們比作“大逃殺”，甚至是“堡壘之夜”。不過我認為這始終是積極向上的遊戲激勵，因為在唐提中，我們的系統並不旨在對其他成員進行殺戮，而是讓你關注自己的健康狀況，是非常積極的！
The best way we could describe it at the time was “The Hunger Games” of Pensions although in recent months I am hearing more and more people compare us to the Battle Royale or even the Fortnite of pensions. I think this is a fair comparison of the life-affirming “game mechanics” motivation which being in a tontine creates although in our system winning comes not from killing off the other members but rather from outliving the other members by taking better care of your health.
5
老手給新手的投資建議，必看！
Bingchan:作為資深投資者，您對我這樣的新手投資者有沒有什麼建議？
Bingchan: As an investor with profound experiences, do you have some suggestions for rookie investors like me?
Dean:這是個十分重要的問題，我投資科技創業公司已經20年了，所有在這些年，我循序漸進，學了很多。因為從年輕時代開始深耕，現在積累了豐厚的經驗。
很多科技類初創企業失敗的原因在於他們對於產品其實並沒有真正的需求。
Dean: This is an important question. I have been investing in technology start-ups for 20 years so you learn a lot of lessons along the way, especially starting from such a young age.
The important thing to know is that the biggest reason that technology start-ups fail is that there is no genuine need for the product in the first place.
所以，你要問自己幾個問題
So the questions you always have to ask yourself is;
1、現在是否存在一種非常嚴重的問題，而且還沒有有效的解決方案？舉例來講，你自己或者家裡人是否面臨著類似的問題，你在其他地方是否聽到路人議論這個問題並且尋求解決方案？
1、Is there a real and large scale problem for which there is no popular solution already in existence? For example, do you personally or anyone in your family have the problem? Have you read in many places about people discussing the problem and the need for a solution?
2、在內心深處，你是否相信既定方案可以解決問題？是能解決一部分還是完全解決？
2、Do you believe in your own heart that the proposed solution will reduce the pain of this problem by a large amount or perhaps even solve it completely?
3、管理團隊是否有充沛的相關經驗？
3、Does the management team have relevant experience?
4、Token買家和管理團隊之間的激勵措施是否做好連接？
4、Are the incentives aligned between token buyers and the management teams?
我認為如果你在篩選項目的時候沒有符合如上的條例，那麼你自己就錯過了創造精彩項目的機會。
I think if you start by filtering out projects that do not fill the above criteria then you have already given yourself a far better chance of backing a great project.
（從這張圖表，我們可以看到初創企業失敗的頭號原因就是沒有真正的市場需求，且比例遠高於其他原因，所以市場需求是重中之重！）
採訪小結
聽君一課，收穫頗豐。其實，不管是投資，創業，還是為了自己的成長，聽聽資深專家的意見，很可能在不經意間給你一些指點喲
唐提信託項目具體信息傳送門
官網：https://tontinetrust.com
To speak to the TontineTrust team, please contact:
Email: [email protected]
Telegram: https://t.me/TontineTrustSupergroup
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TontineTrust
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